Morgan Sherburne:
Welcome to the Michigan Minds podcast, where we explore the wealth of knowledge from faculty experts at University of Michigan. My name is Morgan Sherburne. I’m a public relations representative at Michigan News. Today, I’m talking with Andrzej Wierzbicki, a molecular biologist who studies plant genetics. He was recently awarded a grant to work with Ukrainian and Polish scientists studying how DNA is organized within plant chloroplasts.

Andrzej, welcome to the Michigan Minds podcast. Andrzej, can you tell me a little bit about what you research, what your research focus is?

Andrzej Wierzbicki:
So my group here at U of M studies genes, we are interested in genetics. And genes are important because all traits of all organisms are encoded by genes. So they essentially decide how every organism looks and behaves and works.

Genes are encoded in DNA, and DNA is a very long molecule, which has to be stored. And storage of a long chemical molecule is a very difficult problem for a living organism. And that storage is not only to keep DNA intact, prevent DNA from being fragmented or damaged, but also to allow turning genes on and off when needed, which is one of the fundamental processes in living organisms.

So we are interested in understanding how DNA is stored, how is it packed. And we focus on a very special place in the cell, which is the chloroplast. So chloroplasts are the green organelles inside every plant cell. They perform photosynthesis, which is important. Almost everything we eat comes from photosynthesis and essentially comes from the chloroplast, either directly or indirectly.

And chloroplasts have a very unique history. So more than a billion years ago, they were free living bacteria. They were able to do photosynthesis, and they were incorporated into plant cells and eventually over time became very tightly integrated with the plant cells. So now more than a billion years later, they’re not able to live on their own. They are a part of the plant cell, but they still have some properties of the free living bacteria. And having their own genome is the most important of those properties.

So the chloroplast genome is very understudied. There is little known about how it works, and especially there is very little known about how it’s packaged and stored. So that’s our central research interest right now.

Morgan Sherburne:
Can you describe the work that this grant is funding?

Andrzej Wierzbicki:
The specific work that is part of this project has two components. And one component is happening here at U of M, and it’s using our expertise and essentially genetic tools and plant molecular biology methods to find proteins that bind to DNA inside the chloroplast. So there is some knowledge about those proteins. So it’s not a completely uncharted territory.

However, there is very little known how proteins specifically bind to certain parts of the genome, but not to other parts of the genome. So we expect specificity because gene activity is specific, some parts of the genome are very active, other parts of the genome are turned off. So that’s why we know that there has to be a different subset of proteins binding to active genes and a different subset of proteins binding and organizing parts of the genome that are inactive.

So we want to use a method known as proximity labeling to find proteins that bind to actively transcribed genes and to genes that are turned off to better understand how DNA packaging supports gene activity when it’s needed and then gene inactivity when activity is not needed. So that’s our part.

And our collaborators bring their skills. So they’re not plant molecular biologists, they are both structural biologists. So they are experts in how proteins and nucleic acids, how they look, and so what are their structures, and how these structures imply and affect function of the protein. So they are going to use their expertise and the methods that they are experts in to determine structures of those DNA binding proteins in the chloroplast and also to determine biochemical properties of those proteins. So how do they bind, what is the strength of that binding, what is the sequence specificity of those interactions with the ultimate goal of understanding what these proteins do.

Morgan Sherburne:
Can you talk a little bit more about your scientific partners in Ukraine and Poland?

Andrzej Wierzbicki:
So our Polish partner, Dr. Marcin Nowotny. He’s at the International Institute of Molecular Cell Biology in Warsaw. So he’s an expert in protein structural biology. So he studies proteins, so shape and behavior of proteins, and he uses state-of-the-art methods of protein structural biology like x-ray crystallography and cryo-electron microscopy.

The institute where he works, it’s a very interesting institution. It’s one of very few research institutes that have been founded and established after the end of communism. So they were able to build from scratch a new research institution, which became amazingly successful. So they recruited the best talent in Poland, provided excellent opportunities. So they have by far the best funding rate of all research institutions in Poland. They’re extremely productive, very successful, and publish excellent papers. So they are kind of a role model for research institutes and academic institutions as well in Eastern Europe.

And then the Ukrainian partner, Dr. Mykhailo Tukalo, he’s at the Institute of Molecular Biology and Genetics of National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine. He’s also a structural biologist, but his expertise is more focused on the nucleic acid part, especially on RNA structural biology and the interactions between proteins and nucleic acids.
So it’s important to note that our Ukrainian partner is not a junior partner in this collaboration. So he’s a very successful scientist, he’s very respected in the field, has an amazing publication record of very significant discoveries in the field, and his group is very active and very vibrant. And so we are very excited to have him as our partner.

I also wanted to note that Ukraine is far, and many people are not aware that Ukraine has a very strong history in science and technology, which dates back to the Soviet times. So for instance, much of the Soviet Union aerospace industry was based in Ukraine and staffed by Ukrainian scientists and engineers. So all the efforts that we’re talking about, it’s not building from scratch, it’s helping to maintain strengths and maybe expand in some areas. But Ukraine has a very strong start.

Morgan Sherburne:
Yeah, that’s great to know. And I guess maybe it makes sense to talk a little bit about, at this point, can you talk a little bit about the struggles that they’re facing right now sort of with the ongoing war and how that’s affecting research on this project and sort of where the research is right now?

Andrzej Wierzbicki:
So I only know as much as Mykhailo told me. So I haven’t had an opportunity to visit him yet, although that’s something that we are hoping to accomplish within this project at some point if it becomes possible.

So the biggest problem that he’s complaining about is a loss of personnel. So they lost about… in their institute, about 8% of their staff essentially fled the country. So that was a big challenge.
Although I think seeing how many people fled Ukraine from the general population, that’s still a relatively low number. And I think it speaks to the high spirit of Ukrainian scientists that the vast majority actually decided to stay and continue working in research.

Mykhailo complains about drone attacks that happen essentially daily, and they have… there is an alarm, public transportation stops, they have to go to shelters, so that not only disrupts their work, but also people are stressed.

And I think in research… Well, I complain when someone knocks on my door and disrupts my intellectual process, and then I’m upset for the rest of the day that I cannot focus because someone interrupted my work on a paper. And I think for them the interruptions are just… it must be really tough, and they are very stressed. And they also have a difficult funding situation.

So for US scientists, it’s kind of normal to rely on grants. But for I think in the Ukrainian research system, they had a history, especially the National Academy of Science of Ukraine having government support. So it’s my understanding that that support has declined, and they are now reliant on grants. And their institute is actually very successful in obtaining external funding, and our grant is a part of it. So I’m really happy that I was able to contribute in a way. So they’re doing well, but apparently there are other institutes that are struggling to maintain funding to be able to pay salaries for utilities.

But I spoke to Mykhailo on several occasions and also met by Zoom some of his collaborators in Kiev, and they have amazingly high spirits, and they’re very focused on the research, and they’re very enthusiastic. And I think we can learn a lot from them that they can get so much done and maintain the level of enthusiasm that both sometimes even higher than some of us occasionally have. So I have to say, I am very impressed.

Morgan Sherburne:
Your and the grant’s focus on preventing brain drain. This is not something people are seeing as an opportunity to leave the countries that they’re studying in. So I’d love to hear more about that as well.

Andrzej Wierzbicki:
So that was our biggest goal in establishing this project to prevent a situation where we bring most talented young Ukrainian researchers to Poland or to the United States and they never return. And I have seen that happen. Being myself from Poland, I’ve seen many of my colleagues leave. I actually left myself. I’m kind of the outcome of brain drain, which is, I have to admit, a bit of a difficult topic for me.

So we really didn’t want to contribute to the further devastation of Ukrainian society. And we do not see this type of mobility as a plus. And so of course, people should be free to do what they want, but they should have opportunities in their home country to be close to their families and build their own country, educate the next generation. And I just think that’s the right thing to do. And they should get as much support and as many opportunities as possible to just stay and to work for their own country, for their own nation.

So our plan was to focus on short visits and prioritize visit exchange between Ukraine and Poland. So first of all, it’s kind of easy to travel from Ukraine to Poland. It’s essentially a bus trip or a train ride, not a lengthy plane trip to the US. And it’s much easier to return from Poland than return from the US.

And the way we structured it is that each scientist, Ukrainian scientist visiting Poland will have a very clear goal, learn something, and then bring it back and establish that skill in Ukraine.
So we are hoping that if we keep this visit short and keep them focused on a specific goal that they know from the very beginning that you’re returning and establishing a certain method back home in Ukraine that will, on one hand, minimize brain drain, on the other hand, maximize transfer of skills to Ukraine.

Morgan Sherburne:
What prompted you to apply for this grant?

Andrzej Wierzbicki:
So as I mentioned, I’m originally from Poland. Most of my family still lives in Poland, my parents, my in-laws, most of my friends. So I deeply care about what happens in that region in Central and Eastern Europe. And I saw this program as a unique opportunity to do something within my area of expertise.

And I think we scientists are often tempted to make the world better, but if we do it outside of our area of expertise, that’s rarely productive. So that’s why I really value being able to contribute within my research discipline. And it has a potential impact because research is really important for a modern society to be stable and productive. So I hope that this project will help build Eastern Europe and especially Ukraine as the new powerhouse of science and technology and will help keep the region stable and prosperous, and people living there will be having a lot of opportunities. Of course, it’s a very small piece of a very big puzzle, but I think that’s the only way a scientist can help.

Morgan Sherburne:
That’s great. Okay. And can you talk a little bit about where you are now with the research?

Andrzej Wierzbicki:
So our project started quite recently. So our efforts here at U of M started in August, and the Polish partner started in October, and the Ukrainian group started around a similar timeframe. So it’s still in the relatively preliminary stages.

So here at U of M, a graduate student in my group, Yoonjin Cho, she’s building new genetic tools for the method known as proximity labeling to find these new proteins that bind to the chloroplast genome. And so we are very excited. She’s making very good progress. So this is a very high-risk method, very challenging, very innovative. So we are looking forward to some preliminary pilot results hopefully within the next month.

And then the international partners are working to produce and characterize a first batch of candidate proteins. So this is still in relatively early stages, and we are still in the planning stage for personal exchanges. So we will be planning a trip for Ukrainian scientists to Warsaw to learn cryo-electron microscopy. But that’s a very big goal to transfer this method to Kiev.

And we are also planning a symposium for participants of the project most likely in 2026. And we are hoping that this symposium could happen in Ukraine, probably not in Kiev, maybe in Western Ukraine. And if that’s impossible, then maybe in Eastern Poland. But that is still in early stages of planning.

Morgan Sherburne:
Can you tell me a little bit about how each institute in the grant is supporting each other?

Andrzej Wierzbicki:
So we at U of M offered the biological question. So we convinced our partners that the methodology that they know may be very helpful to answer questions and resolve mechanisms that we are interested in.

And about the Polish and Ukrainian partners, they are structural biologists. So their contribution will be to help us study chloroplast proteins using methods that our group is not really that familiar with. So it will be very beneficial for our research to have access to that methodology.
And then an important goal of the project is for the Ukrainian group to learn how to perform cryo-electron microscopy. And that’s the most modern, most trendy method to study protein structures. It’s now very well-established at the institute in Poland. And the institute in Kiev still has no access to that method. So they are going to learn the experimental part, and they’re also going to learn how to perform data analysis and data interpretation.

And we hope that the outcome will be progress of our research, answering biological questions, and maturing publications, which we are hoping for, and transfer of expertise, especially to the Ukrainian partner.

We really hope that another outcome will be at least a few junior scientists in Ukraine that will be familiar with how science is being done here at U of M and how modern science works. And they will have opportunities to be very successful and become independent scientists in the future.

And we also hope that our Ukrainian partner will at least have an opportunity to see our institutions here at U of M. We are planning a visit for him at U of M next year, and also the institute in Warsaw, which is probably even a better example.

I don’t think that we are in a position to give them any lessons, and I think they know how to organize the research. But this opportunity to see how we get things done here at U of M and how things are done at the institute in Warsaw, I think will help them guide themselves for the future, and maybe avoid some of the mistakes that we made, and establish institutions that are even stronger and more productive.

Morgan Sherburne:
Can you give me an overview of the research initiative led by NSF that provided funding for your grant?

Andrzej Wierzbicki:
Yes. So it’s called International Multilateral Partnership for Resilient Education and Science System in Ukraine or IMPRESS-U for short. And the partners are the United States, Ukraine, and four Central European countries, which are members of NATO and European Union. And these are Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia. And the goals of the program is to build research excellence by international collaboration and also to help integrate Ukrainian scientists into the international research community.

There are some more specific goals, so times are tough, especially in Ukraine. So the program is supposed to be resilient. So we are supposed to get stuff done even if things get worse. We are supposed to work on preparing Eastern European scientists to thrive in the international research communities, so essentially to work, speak, and think like modern scientists. And we also want to help build modern research institutions in Eastern Europe, especially in Ukraine.
And each partner country has its own funding. So it’s important to know that US taxpayers’ money only supports research at the University of Michigan, and Polish and Ukrainian partners have their own sources of funding.

Morgan Sherburne:
Thank you so much for visiting the Michigan Minds podcast.

Andrzej Wierzbicki:
Thank you for having me.

Morgan Sherburne:
Thank you for listening to this episode of Michigan Minds produced by Michigan News, a division of the university’s Office of the Vice President for Communications.